Today was a long day. I have had naught but broken sleep this past week and I do not understand why I have been waking up constantly and at odd hours during my attempts at slumber. I had to get up early this morning, had two classes in the afternoon, a test, and a lecture with mandantory attendence on Kurt Gödel that I wished I could have understood but my brain was, at that point, resembling a pancake.
Anwyay, recently in a video game I like to play the creator has proposed some changes. I and other like me have shown concern and constructive criticism over the changes. However, much to my delight, someone gave me rant fodder in the form of a post telling us all to "stop complaining". This is my response to that post, put here because I've been too busy to update in a long time.
Don't bother reading it unless you want to be baffled.
Disclaimer: Take the following into account.
I A) Understand the basic fundamental reasoning behind the changes.
I B) Want Naruto Wars to be as balanced as it can be, and really don't expect it to be much more balanced than 5.50d was.
I C) Am complaining not because I will not enjoy the new version, but because I feel the drop in balance from 5.50d to the current versions has hurt NW's reputation. I feel that if this continues, the time it will take me to find a game will be longer than the longest queue for World of Warcraft.
That said. I will now respond to each and every point I see in this entire thread deserving of my rantification.
Firstly, a good number of us aren't "complaining" but are, instead, employing what is called constructive criticism. We aren't saying things like, "OMGWTFBBQ j00 5ux0rz11!1" but are instead making arguments as to why different courses of action should be considered.
think of the changes this way
As previously noted, I too have a good understanding of what the end goal of all these changes is. I've thought of the changes that way and I've come to the conclusion that, as it is, it will only result in an extremely unbalanced v6.5 which will only cause problems for NW and solve very little.
Issue #1 - Lowered health.
Most people are saying that because the lowered health, all spellcasters are gonna be rigged...
If you remember the drastic change from 500d to 6.0c, spellcasters are now (or i should say were) called 'utterly useless for late game' I highly doubt 250-300 less hp transforms a nuker from 'useless' to 'omfg rigged' Think about it
In a post I previously made, I'll note that it isn't just a matter of nukers. This is a matter of nukers, harassers and bashers. I can't tell you how many close calls I've both had and seen had in my time playing this game which were determined by as little as 17 hp, let alone the ones where I or my opponent walked away with less than 250 health.
Additionally, the enlightened players on this board realize that nukers are currently in no way "useless" but are instead "decent". Going from "decent" to "rigged" isn't that big a step.
Lets continue this with the next issue.
Issue #2 - 40% lowered hp regen.
Not a big issue as far as im concerned.. since when did the miniscule ammount of hp u regen per minute make a difference while fighting another player? Most battles are over within 15-20 secs.. and in that time players would already dish out so much hp, regen makes almost no difference whatsoever by the time the fights over. At least half of most peoples regen comes from soulstones anyway, which will still have the same regen.
It isn't miniscule for strength heroes, and NW does not solely consist of 15-20 second battles. The entire early portion of the game is comprised of the long, drawn out lane wars wherein a good hp regen was a strong advantage. Without that hp regen, one of the only defenses against harassers for most heroes, out regenning their damage, is gone. Along with the hp reduction, you'll be spending a lot of time running back and forth between your base and your tower just because your hp is being continually drained by the relentless assault some of the best harassers, such as Haku and the Akatsuki leader, can lay down.
Note the highlight in the quote. Lets break down what that means. If half of most character's regen comes from soulstones, the other half comes from what just got smashed hard with the nerf stick. Additionally, that's only most characters. A good number of characters don't often get soulstones if ever, and as such are getting hurt even more.
Your argument for both of these issues boils down to "It won't make much difference". If that's the case, will it make that much difference if we don't make those changes?
Issue #3 - Lowered dmg growth
OMG WE HAVE SO MUCH LESS HP WE WILL TAKE SO MUCH DMG NOW AND DIE
OMG WE DO SO MUCH LESS DMG IT WILL BE HARDER TO KILL PPL NOW
think about those two comments (together) for a sec....
Honestly, the lower damage growth makes sense along with the less hp. The problem is that the current interpretation has been that this relates only to physical damage and not jutsu damage. This interpretation, which I remind you has not yet been rebuttled by Wanderer, is the cause of the whole issue surrounding nukers and harassers. So long as their skill damage remains unchanged, they all just got a huge buff.
Also, I haven't noted much of the second statement, but that may just be me.
Issue #4 - Revamped armor.
Remember the most annoying thing? when there would be a kimmimaro with 3-4 agi seals so that you couldnt do practically any normal dmg to him? Supposedly not a problem anymore. See-ya armor stackers! From what its supposed to do, armor will no longer be as powerful, but not at all useless.
The revamped armor actually isn't that much of an issue for me. It's the revamp of the armor items that is the issue. Most of these items weren't being used by agility heroes anyway, and if they were they were sacrificing a lot for the sake of taking marginally less damage. All the item revamp has done is reduce everyone but the agility hero's armor as well. The agility heros will get less armor from their seals, everyone else, who couldn't armor stack like that anyway, now also will have less armor. THAT is what doesn't make sense to me.
Underpowered heros will now be more behind compared to other characters. THIS is a miniscule problem in the long run. All that needs to happen to fix this seemingly large problem is a buff on underpowered heros for 6.5c or w/e the next small update will be.
That's like saying "all that needs to happen in Iraq is for the government to solidify and take control". It's a simple statement, it encompasses what needs to happen, but at the same time fails to deliver the message of just how complicated that's going to get. In the long run we're all going to be dust on this earth, so why complain that a bunch of terrorists flew some planes into our buildings. We and all of humanity one day will be dead, so what does it matter?
This is the problem with statements like "eventually" and "in the long run". They don't help. If people are starving now, it doesn't help to say, "eventually we'll get you food and jobs". That doesn't stop them from dying of hunger. In the same way, assuring us that what imbalances there will be "eventually" will vanish does not asuage our fears that they will be.
Onward and forward through the thread entire!
And the next step after this one is to nerf all the spell damage to bring it in line with the nerfed health.
That would help solve the nuker/harasser problem. As I mentioned in a previous post, a LOT of testing will have to be done to make sure that this next version is balanced. Getting all the spell damages in line would be one of the major areas to make certain of balance.
if u havent noticed most spells like itachi's fire and gai's peacock have already been nerfed, and your expecting it to be nerfed more?
Except that the previous Gai change was supposed to balance it for how the health currently is. Now that health is going away again, it'll go back to being imbalanced. Gai netting ftw.
QUOTE (Drake 22)
theres no need to nerf spell damage more then its already been nerfed
See the previous post.
i dunno i plan to play this game maybe 1 or 2 times.. if it really is a problem... well im gonna quit naruto wars and start RPing and mass DOTA with some friends
Despite the complaints, I highly suggest you stick around. NW is fun and worth playing. I remember in the age old days of Hero Wars and the first Aeon of Strife maps when WarCraft III first came out. As imbalanced as things can get, I don't think it'll ever be as bad as those days. If everyone who thinks there is a problem jumps ship, there'll be noone to tell Wanderer what should be changed.
There are enough DOTA players as is, they don't need anyone else. Play NW!
Summary: Logical Statements
There's no point in me evaluating everything here. As my summary there purports, it's all logical. I will highlight some stuff I missed.
It's not about killing people... Those units who rely on damage for killing units, imagine how hard it will be now to simply get creep kills.... let alone towers. Agi heroes have not been nerfed, rather given a boost while damage has been reduced and corruption orb nerfed? yeah...
A very good point. With less armor and damage heros who already had a hard time creeping are definately going to be at a loss for what to do.
Well I hav stated this b4 and I WILL state it again. I dun care if u quit playing NW or not. Simply leave if u dun like it, extremely simple. No nid to post it on the forum, its really veri pointless. Period.
I just ask, Wanderer, that you realize that finding games in the public list is already hard enough. While we can all learn a lesson from Blizzard in ignoring threats of "I h473 j00 I qu17" in the World of Warcraft forums, we should be aware that we want to avoid unnecessarily turning off players from NW.
And yes, posting that you're leaving is pointless.
naruto wars isnt supposed to be like dota. and if u havent noticed dota is even more rigged on spellcasters. lion is f**king unstopable, and then u got lich and CM who can take on a whole team and some other dudes. and those who r spellcasters in NW have low health if u havent noticed. so just make sure they waste their spells and then u can just net and pawn. in my opinion this is a much more balanced versian than any other ones
We should definately remember what Naruto Wars is and isn't. It isn't DOTA, and as such comparisons between them are rather pointless, especially when some of us never played DOTA.
In any case, I don't think Wanderer likes large discussions of DOTA (this is a NW forum after all) so let's avoid mentioning it too much.
Summary: DOTA Jargon
I don't know what it all means, so I'll just say the less we talk about DOTA the better.
Wanderer, I give you the OG Thumbs Up Award for putting these people in their place for thinking its going to hurt us that they stop playing NW because of new changes.
I'll restate a previous point. I'm not going anywhere. I will be here to haunt your every step. As such, be careful you don't trod on those of us who show concern, we'll remember.
That said, it is A) still hard enough to find public games and B) many of us are not complaining, but are instead just trying to make NW the best it can be. Don't hate us for wanting what we think is best (namely, balance).
And I'm just going to skip anything else relating to DOTA, for the most part.
Beradin, i was talking about spellcasters like temari and raikage. As of late game (6.0c) they WERE pretty much useless compared to other characters.
Temari, Raikage, useless? Maybe in the hands of a person unfamiliar with their proper usage. However, I can hardly say that either of them are nerfed in this new version. If anything, the less HP and regen everyone will have only makes ZAP even more of a problem for the enemy team.
And yes, the hp regen might be a problem for EARLY game for melee chars, but once you lvl up some, hp regen really isnt gonna pose a problem at all. With the hp count you will obtain mid/late game (even if it is like 250 less) regen is not gonna make a noticable impact in the middle of a battle. If you have a problem with being harrassed early game by ranged players, just hold position behind the creeps untill you lvl that way. no problems
"Might" nothing. I don't think you quite understand what the implications of early game play are.
Tower hugging is hardly the solution. For one, it hardly stops some harassers from using long range spells to force you to leave the field altogether. For two, if you're tower hugging you aren't farming, your tower is. You may, on a rare occaision, get a kill but that's precious little to the free reign you've given your opponent. Failure to farm properly early game easily leads to a weaker hero late game.
This isn't to mention how many times I've escaped death as characters such as the Dumb Twins and Mizuki simply because as I ran away my hp was regening such that the pursuing hero was only keeping my hp even as opposed to making any progress in finishing me off.
Summary: More Logical Statements
Anyway, some highlights.
HP Regen isn't really about making difference during the match. It's more focused on what you can do after the battles and counter/nulling some of poison effects. Since corruption's so nerfed and buildings and creeps are buffed, it will be impossible to be able to continue pushing after battle when your life doesn't restore fast enough, meaning longer, much longer game. Considering average private matches take 1 hour to 1 hour and 20 minutes, yeah little bit too much with changes since I'm thinking at least hour and 30 minutes for match to end
That hadn't even crossed my mind. Since I don't believe Wanderer wants to make NW games take longer, barring him coming out and saying it, that would be a major problem.
Skip! Thanks to both of you for reiterating the "Stop talking about DOTA" thing!
While I agree with you on AGL seals to curruption orbs is not right, you are totally wrong on the aspect of nukers in the game. The DO suck late especially Raikage. Going for a melee build is no fun, and counters the reason people choose mages. Also Raikage only has 2 spamable moves and he can't get a hex crystal, so no heavy spaming. Besides melee chars can do as much damage as one of his moves in a single hit late game.
I'm afraid I agree with Beradin. Raikage and other nukers do not suck late game. Some of them will if you keep trying to nuke with them, some of them won't, and some of them will if you just don't know how to properly keep nuking with them late game. I suggest you challenge Beradin in a match vs him as any of the nukers mentioned here and you'll be unpleasently surprised when he wins.
Or, you may prove your point.
Now unfortunatly with all the changes going on it will be hard to say what the end result is. Honestly I think this path Wanderer has choosen is not quite as balanced as he is hoping, but I will have to wait and see. If things don't work out we can let him know how we feel.
I personally prefer disaster prevention rather disaster cleanup. While calling this a "disaster" is hardly fair, the principle holds. It's much easier to do things right the first time than mess them up and later fix it.
Summary: Restatement of Logic
Like I said, actually play him, post the replay, and show that Nukers are already decent late game. That way, the point can come across.
I'm probably going to stick with 5.50, these changes don't sound too good
To my knowledge, a lot of players currently prefer 5.50d. I believe KTS uses it for all official matches.
But I still say 6.0c is balanced enough in terms of health, damage, and character types. Melee characters are big on owning end game with mediocrity early on, just as much as nukers own early game but play big support characters end game (with the proper build, their combination of nukes and physical attacks [[i.e Neji]] own end game too). I fail to see the reason behind the whole health and damage drop, seeing as it was balanced enough
While some people might have words with you when calling 6.0c balanced enough, your thoughts are similar to many. Many feel that earlier versions were already about to reach a very nice balance, wherein new characters would fit in nicely and old throwaways were ready to step into the limelight and recieve the respect they deserve. Whatever the intentions of the new version, it seems more a catalyst for unbalance than one for a new age of balance.
I really couldn't agree more. Only reason for unbalance in game, well at least in 5.50d were because of few unbalanced characters/skills. Otherwise game was perfectly fine with heroes being used for different purposes. I mean even with all those items, good matches lasted good hour and half everytime
Reiteration of previous thoughts!
These changes are really not near as bad/drastic as everyone is making them out to be!
We all know our old strategies wont work anymore, so think of something new. If the game never underwent changes everyone would stop playing because it would get boring anyway. Whenever a problem has come up in the past, wanderer has fixed it. So lets say these changes DO tend to make the game worse (although i really dont think they will) Wanderer will come up with a way to fix it and set the game right again.
This isn't a matter of new or old strategies. This isn't a matter of changes. This is a matter of changes we feel do nothing to make the game better and if anything will promote problems that were on the verge of or just previously fixed. If you so desired, I could list for you my favorite strategy with my favorite character, and tell you exactly how nothing has changed about the strategy except how it is now even more power because of the changes.
And again, I prefer prevention to post-apocalypse reaction. We who are showing concern want to prevent any problems from ever happening. Why should we wait until after it happens to solve it? If you were in a plane that was going to crash, would you wait until after it crashed to figure out why it wasn't flying right?
We have no doubt that Wanderer can fix problems as they come. We just want to save him work, and everyone else headache, by preventing problems before they happen.
well since main bases are now completely immune to jutsu u cant waterfall it and go invis.... but that was just cheap as hell anyway.
From my experience, the damage from that on towers and the main base was extremely minimal. Unlike the Akatsuki leader, maintaining the skill for its duration would not eventually destroy them. Generally, the Main Base did more damage to Zabuza than Zabuza would be able to do to the base.
I may have been mistaken, in which case that change fixes a major issue I didn't know about. Otherwise, it just prevents Kagerou from healing all towers and the base all the time.
Waterfall didn't hit buildings anyway
Thanks for that clarification!
Well for all those people thinking wanderer is making naruto wars fall...it's his map he can do what ever he wants with it...if you don't like the changes then play older versions or don't play at all
It is true he can do whatever he wants with it. And it is true we can play older versions or leave. Again, I stress two points.
1) I don't think Wanderer likes making his map imbalanced.
2) We want NW to be the best it can be.
As such, we offer our suggestions and concerns in this forum.
I dont really think hes making NW fall, hes just trying to balance it.
He may be, and we want him to succeed in that.
I will respond periodically.